This has a point, I swear it.
Apr. 24th, 2009 10:48 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tsukinofaeriiMeta that is and should never be. Right lol.
Okay, so I was thinking. Male characters as women. We all know genderbender fanfic exists and some of us love it. I, particularly love it for the revenge factor. "Yeah, that's what cramps feel like! Now tell me I'm being melodramatic, you bastard!" Yes, I admit it's petty, but I don't exactly get to express those sentiments RL-side, so doing it in fiction is nicely cathartic. But... you know, it doesn't really address all the pain of being a girl, does it? There's a lot of things that suck for women that you only really notice if you were raised dealing with it, or if people apply it to you, which arguably isn't likely to happen in a magical-vagina scenario.
He didn't get spoon-fed the idea that being a parent is the pinnacle of achievement as a child, or told that he is lesser if he doesn't want it.
He's never going to have to really deal with the slut/stud dichotomy, because she is really a he and so it's perfectly okay for him to "take the body for a test drive".
Everyone around him knows him as who is he, so he doesn't have to deal with people talking to his breasts or assuming that pretty =! stupid. In fact, people will probably go out of their way to avoid that sort of behavior because of the homosexual connotations that could show up after the change is reversed. (The prospective love-interest being excluded, of course.)
Not once is someone going to patronize his strength. He's never going to have to deal with going to a job interview and being told that "this job requires lifting 20 pounds" multiple times, because it's assumed that he's physically weaker. Nevermind that 20 pounds is easy for most healthy people to lift.
He is very unlikely to have to handle being in more danger because of the above women = weak presumption, or even consider walking down the street after dark to be a bad idea because of this. He's Really A Man, so it's okay. The constant risk of being a target/victim has not been pounded into his head.
No one will ever question if he's too feminine/not feminine enough. If they do, he has an easy excuse and will not actually analyze the unfairness of this being a question at all.
So... What I want to know is, isn't that sort of cheating? Yes, we get some good laughs, and maybe the main character gets the point that women = men = human. (Okay, okay, exceptions exist on the human part. :P) But there's so many issues that we never get to see covered, because it's just not natural for a man in that position to even notice them. I can't call it bad writing, because why would a man think it's occasionally annoying for someone to offer to lift that oh-so-heavy 15 pound box for a woman? Would he even notice the implications when he's told "that dress makes your ass look big"?
That's part of the reason why I like genderswitch fic. It's easy to say "it's just the same character with different plumbing", but it's not. Really it's not. Societal pressures are totally different for a girl than for a boy. It changes things, sometimes in ways that can be huge when you actually sit down and factor these things in. The whole story has to adjust itself around the character, not because he's a she, but because she experienced different struggles than he did.
To pull out a completely shameless plug, I wrote a (bad) HP fic that genderswitched everyone, and I mean everyone. I had to write out a list of alternate names in order to keep track of them. HP is odd in terms of gender and feminist issues, so there didn't seem to be much to go on, but some things were pretty radical. One character that changed the most was Draco/Dracaena.
Draco as a boy was a petty villain. He's a bully, but a coward. He just doesn't have it in him to be a real threat, because boys fight physically and the aforementioned cowardice keeps him in check. As a girl, Dracaena is vicious. Girls are raised to be at war with each other, and the battle ground is made of words. She doesn't have to worry about fights to avoid—she's socially superior to most people. All she has to do is snub someone, start a nasty rumor or just say something cruel, and she's won. With a boy, those are preliminaries, but with a girl they're the whole fight. If she'd been inclined so, she would have been much more effective as a villain than Draco, I think. But she was also raised as a lady, and an old-fashioned type too. Ladies are not villains. They don't dirty their hands except when they have no choice, and Dracaena had plenty of choice. Ladies are protected, and she was so protected that the whole idea of war broadsided her. Narcissa/Narcissus had more of an influence on her than Lucius/Lucretia, because as the male head-of-house, he would have made the calls, and he wouldn't have gotten deep into the war. So as bitchy and snarky as she is, she's softer in a lot of ways.
Now for the completely random headcanon that I've been thinking of: Tony Stark. Born a girl. I can blame this train of thought on what got me into the fandom. Namely, this. They started it; I'm just dragging the idea out to its logical conclusion. Except that I'm going to go with Toni (from Antonia) rather than Natasha. There are reasons for this. (Mostly that I think there are reasons she would shorten her name to a short, sharp sound, and "Nat" doesn't seem like a good name.)
Okay! Tony Stark. Let's look at the basics of what shaped him, shall we? He's the genius son of a genius man, who dealt in weapons manufacturing and managed to build himself a little empire based on it. His father was an asshole to the nth degree. He's insanely wealthy from handed-down money and position. Heenjoys revels in tech.
Now, arguably, all of these things had an affect on his character. As the son of H. Stark, he wasn't just expected to achieve, he was expected to exceed. The result: Tony is an over-achiever, and is known to drive himself well beyond what is healthy. The weapons manufacturing eventually gave him a guilt trip bigger than Jupiter. The inherited empire came with a sense of responsibility for other people, even to the exclusion of his own welfare. His father gave him a set of self-esteem issues bigger than his guilt complex. Finally, his intelligence and money handed him the tools he needed to indulge all of this, good and bad.
Add in the catalyst of his kidnapping and we have the makings of Iron Man. And, incidentally, a problem with alcohol.
With me so far? Now I'm bringing in Toni. Same issues, but with a vagina, right? Erm, not really. The genius daughter of a genius man is... not. Sadly, but she's not. Please tell me how often the word "genius" is applied to a girl? She'll be "very bright" and "talented", but she won't be considered a genius. Rather than being the heir to the family identity, she'd be a placeholder, even though her intelligence is the exact same as her male counterparts. If Toni wants recognition for her brains, she's going to have to fight for it. "Exceeding" isn't enough.
Weapons manufacturing? First, she's going to have to claw her way there. Maybe literally. Technology is still very much a man's field, and weapons are definitely for men. It wouldn't surprise me if she didn't manage to retake control of company after she hit adulthood. The shareholders would be much more comfortable with an older, experienced man in the job than a "flighty young girl". And then when Tony realized that he was killing people, it was a heel-face turn, and applauded by the audience. It almost cost him the company, but he managed to get it back. For her, it'll be a weakness—expected and disappointing. If she wants to keep Stark Industries, she'd better not go down that path. This is why "Toni" instead of "Natasha". Toni is a strong-sounding name in a world where she's more likely to be a name on paper than a face. It counts.
Gods help her with the Daddy issues, because on top of those she'll also have to deal with being judged by her cup-size. I doubt Howard Stark was pleased that his heir is a girl; he doesn't seem like an equality-loving sort of person. She was probably a tomboy as a child, but when that didn't work to get fatherly approval she started acting more feminine instead.
When I look at all of this and put it with Tony's personality, I see someone who is very... prickly. Tony takes everything to heart and analyzes it in the most extreme of ways—Toni wouldn't be any different. She's the type of girl who gets offended when someone holds the door for her, because she sees it as suggesting that she's too weak to get her own door. Chivalry is her pet-peeve. Her control issues would be through the roof, since it seems like everyone is offering to "take things off her hands". She can't afford to be weak, not in front of anyone. The eventual alcoholism would have been kept under much closer guard, but probably easier to keep secret. Girl aren't perceived as being alcoholics and much as men, so as long as she kept from being messily drunk in public, she could go forever without having someone call her on it.
Socially, I think she'd learn to use her femininity as a weapon. If she takes the tomboy approach, she'll be dismissed as a girl trying to be one of the guys. Fashion is a tool I don't think many guys appreciate—she doesn't dare be underestimated, but the world will judge her by whether her shoes match her purse. Nudging that judgment in the direction of "rich, highly intelligent woman" would be the smart think to do. (Faux glasses, anyone?)
There's also the self-esteem issue to consider. I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I know that I feel better about myself when I dress up. Not just when I look good, but when I look good in girl clothes. It makes me feel more feminine, and therefore better about myself. 90% of the time, I don't bother, but if you ever catch me in heels casually, you can guess that I'm having a bad week. People might not value her for her brains, but they will value her for her beauty, and someone like Toni needs validation that way. I see her liking to dress well, and deliberately keeping her hair long to emphasize her her femininity. (I admit I am totally stealing the long hair = feminine = self-esteem thing from myself in a lot of ways.)
And then there's Iron Man. The ultimate crutch for someone who's constantly fighting to assert herself as "as good as a man". This is where I depart entirely from "if A, then B" reasoning and start rambling. At first, it's just a way to escape Vietghanistan, but if things stayed that simple, we wouldn't have a comic, much less a movie.
Matters follow their normal course—this wouldn't differ much from canon. I don't even think the original suit design would be different, because someone under those circumstances just isn't going to take time to beat out articulated boobs on a chest plate. Just make sure they're not going to be squashed flat and you're good to go. The second armor, I think, wouldn't be much different either. I don't picture Toni as a girl with the most common superpower, so she doesn't need that much room for her breasts. At this point, things aren't about asserting herself, it's about making up for a lifetime of profiting from other people's misery. You can probably see where this is going. Iron Woman is mistaken for Iron Man.
And she would like it.
Well, initially she'd be outraged about the mistake. But people talk about Iron Man differently than she's used to. They respect Iron Man for what "he" has done, without adjusting that opinion for the sake of gender. And of all people, Toni knows that Iron Woman would have a much harder time getting off the ground, so to speak. So she works with it, telling herself it's "just for now" and confirms nothing—never referring to "Iron Man" or the gender of the suit/its wearer. Build up the reputation, then give a big reveal. Flashy idea, yet very functional. In other words, Stark All Over.
And then comes the Avengers. This isn't just respect from the media. People treat Iron Man differently too. That would be an even stronger drug than alcohol. The Wasp would throw a spanner in things—I've no idea how that angle of the story went canonically, but Toni would pay attention to how the Wasp is treated because of her status as Token Chick. She'd pay even more attention when she doesn't get treated how she'd expect. After that, there'd be some long, quiet wrangling about holding up herself as a woman and the acceptance. Should she throw in with Wasp and show female solidarity? Historically, that's what she would have done, but hearing "you did a good job" without having "for a girl" tacked on would be a mighty strong incentive. She'd completely believe that they'd toss her out of the Avengers if she revealed her gender. It's unrealistic, because by the time you get up to being a superhero, little things like gender don't seem to matter as much, but her fears haven't always been very realistic. At least the Wasp has powers, right? Toni's just a chick in a nice suit.
After the Avengers comes... Captain America. And hate at first sight. Remember what I said about Toni getting annoyed by the whole chivalry thing? That's Cap's shtick. He's the perfect soldier, which means chivalry all over. Of course, he also has the disadvantage of being the peak of human perfection—and male by default, because gods help us if a woman happens to be the strongest/fastest/greatest/etc. I imagine she did a lot of liver-gnawing over that when learning about him in school. This is decidedly not Cap's #1 fan. Fortunately, hating Cap is like hating puppies and rainbows and puppy-shaped rainbows all at once, so I don't think it would stick.
After that, my headcanon runs out, because my canon runs out lol. I've really no idea how Toni would handle all the crap Tony went through and continues to go through.
WHEW. Now that that's out of my system, I can feel safe never ever writing it. I have too many fics as it is, lol. (zomg 2,400 words of rambling, wtf?)
Okay, so I was thinking. Male characters as women. We all know genderbender fanfic exists and some of us love it. I, particularly love it for the revenge factor. "Yeah, that's what cramps feel like! Now tell me I'm being melodramatic, you bastard!" Yes, I admit it's petty, but I don't exactly get to express those sentiments RL-side, so doing it in fiction is nicely cathartic. But... you know, it doesn't really address all the pain of being a girl, does it? There's a lot of things that suck for women that you only really notice if you were raised dealing with it, or if people apply it to you, which arguably isn't likely to happen in a magical-vagina scenario.
He didn't get spoon-fed the idea that being a parent is the pinnacle of achievement as a child, or told that he is lesser if he doesn't want it.
He's never going to have to really deal with the slut/stud dichotomy, because she is really a he and so it's perfectly okay for him to "take the body for a test drive".
Everyone around him knows him as who is he, so he doesn't have to deal with people talking to his breasts or assuming that pretty =! stupid. In fact, people will probably go out of their way to avoid that sort of behavior because of the homosexual connotations that could show up after the change is reversed. (The prospective love-interest being excluded, of course.)
Not once is someone going to patronize his strength. He's never going to have to deal with going to a job interview and being told that "this job requires lifting 20 pounds" multiple times, because it's assumed that he's physically weaker. Nevermind that 20 pounds is easy for most healthy people to lift.
He is very unlikely to have to handle being in more danger because of the above women = weak presumption, or even consider walking down the street after dark to be a bad idea because of this. He's Really A Man, so it's okay. The constant risk of being a target/victim has not been pounded into his head.
No one will ever question if he's too feminine/not feminine enough. If they do, he has an easy excuse and will not actually analyze the unfairness of this being a question at all.
So... What I want to know is, isn't that sort of cheating? Yes, we get some good laughs, and maybe the main character gets the point that women = men = human. (Okay, okay, exceptions exist on the human part. :P) But there's so many issues that we never get to see covered, because it's just not natural for a man in that position to even notice them. I can't call it bad writing, because why would a man think it's occasionally annoying for someone to offer to lift that oh-so-heavy 15 pound box for a woman? Would he even notice the implications when he's told "that dress makes your ass look big"?
That's part of the reason why I like genderswitch fic. It's easy to say "it's just the same character with different plumbing", but it's not. Really it's not. Societal pressures are totally different for a girl than for a boy. It changes things, sometimes in ways that can be huge when you actually sit down and factor these things in. The whole story has to adjust itself around the character, not because he's a she, but because she experienced different struggles than he did.
To pull out a completely shameless plug, I wrote a (bad) HP fic that genderswitched everyone, and I mean everyone. I had to write out a list of alternate names in order to keep track of them. HP is odd in terms of gender and feminist issues, so there didn't seem to be much to go on, but some things were pretty radical. One character that changed the most was Draco/Dracaena.
Draco as a boy was a petty villain. He's a bully, but a coward. He just doesn't have it in him to be a real threat, because boys fight physically and the aforementioned cowardice keeps him in check. As a girl, Dracaena is vicious. Girls are raised to be at war with each other, and the battle ground is made of words. She doesn't have to worry about fights to avoid—she's socially superior to most people. All she has to do is snub someone, start a nasty rumor or just say something cruel, and she's won. With a boy, those are preliminaries, but with a girl they're the whole fight. If she'd been inclined so, she would have been much more effective as a villain than Draco, I think. But she was also raised as a lady, and an old-fashioned type too. Ladies are not villains. They don't dirty their hands except when they have no choice, and Dracaena had plenty of choice. Ladies are protected, and she was so protected that the whole idea of war broadsided her. Narcissa/Narcissus had more of an influence on her than Lucius/Lucretia, because as the male head-of-house, he would have made the calls, and he wouldn't have gotten deep into the war. So as bitchy and snarky as she is, she's softer in a lot of ways.
Now for the completely random headcanon that I've been thinking of: Tony Stark. Born a girl. I can blame this train of thought on what got me into the fandom. Namely, this. They started it; I'm just dragging the idea out to its logical conclusion. Except that I'm going to go with Toni (from Antonia) rather than Natasha. There are reasons for this. (Mostly that I think there are reasons she would shorten her name to a short, sharp sound, and "Nat" doesn't seem like a good name.)
Okay! Tony Stark. Let's look at the basics of what shaped him, shall we? He's the genius son of a genius man, who dealt in weapons manufacturing and managed to build himself a little empire based on it. His father was an asshole to the nth degree. He's insanely wealthy from handed-down money and position. He
Now, arguably, all of these things had an affect on his character. As the son of H. Stark, he wasn't just expected to achieve, he was expected to exceed. The result: Tony is an over-achiever, and is known to drive himself well beyond what is healthy. The weapons manufacturing eventually gave him a guilt trip bigger than Jupiter. The inherited empire came with a sense of responsibility for other people, even to the exclusion of his own welfare. His father gave him a set of self-esteem issues bigger than his guilt complex. Finally, his intelligence and money handed him the tools he needed to indulge all of this, good and bad.
Add in the catalyst of his kidnapping and we have the makings of Iron Man. And, incidentally, a problem with alcohol.
With me so far? Now I'm bringing in Toni. Same issues, but with a vagina, right? Erm, not really. The genius daughter of a genius man is... not. Sadly, but she's not. Please tell me how often the word "genius" is applied to a girl? She'll be "very bright" and "talented", but she won't be considered a genius. Rather than being the heir to the family identity, she'd be a placeholder, even though her intelligence is the exact same as her male counterparts. If Toni wants recognition for her brains, she's going to have to fight for it. "Exceeding" isn't enough.
Weapons manufacturing? First, she's going to have to claw her way there. Maybe literally. Technology is still very much a man's field, and weapons are definitely for men. It wouldn't surprise me if she didn't manage to retake control of company after she hit adulthood. The shareholders would be much more comfortable with an older, experienced man in the job than a "flighty young girl". And then when Tony realized that he was killing people, it was a heel-face turn, and applauded by the audience. It almost cost him the company, but he managed to get it back. For her, it'll be a weakness—expected and disappointing. If she wants to keep Stark Industries, she'd better not go down that path. This is why "Toni" instead of "Natasha". Toni is a strong-sounding name in a world where she's more likely to be a name on paper than a face. It counts.
Gods help her with the Daddy issues, because on top of those she'll also have to deal with being judged by her cup-size. I doubt Howard Stark was pleased that his heir is a girl; he doesn't seem like an equality-loving sort of person. She was probably a tomboy as a child, but when that didn't work to get fatherly approval she started acting more feminine instead.
When I look at all of this and put it with Tony's personality, I see someone who is very... prickly. Tony takes everything to heart and analyzes it in the most extreme of ways—Toni wouldn't be any different. She's the type of girl who gets offended when someone holds the door for her, because she sees it as suggesting that she's too weak to get her own door. Chivalry is her pet-peeve. Her control issues would be through the roof, since it seems like everyone is offering to "take things off her hands". She can't afford to be weak, not in front of anyone. The eventual alcoholism would have been kept under much closer guard, but probably easier to keep secret. Girl aren't perceived as being alcoholics and much as men, so as long as she kept from being messily drunk in public, she could go forever without having someone call her on it.
Socially, I think she'd learn to use her femininity as a weapon. If she takes the tomboy approach, she'll be dismissed as a girl trying to be one of the guys. Fashion is a tool I don't think many guys appreciate—she doesn't dare be underestimated, but the world will judge her by whether her shoes match her purse. Nudging that judgment in the direction of "rich, highly intelligent woman" would be the smart think to do. (Faux glasses, anyone?)
There's also the self-esteem issue to consider. I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I know that I feel better about myself when I dress up. Not just when I look good, but when I look good in girl clothes. It makes me feel more feminine, and therefore better about myself. 90% of the time, I don't bother, but if you ever catch me in heels casually, you can guess that I'm having a bad week. People might not value her for her brains, but they will value her for her beauty, and someone like Toni needs validation that way. I see her liking to dress well, and deliberately keeping her hair long to emphasize her her femininity. (I admit I am totally stealing the long hair = feminine = self-esteem thing from myself in a lot of ways.)
And then there's Iron Man. The ultimate crutch for someone who's constantly fighting to assert herself as "as good as a man". This is where I depart entirely from "if A, then B" reasoning and start rambling. At first, it's just a way to escape Vietghanistan, but if things stayed that simple, we wouldn't have a comic, much less a movie.
Matters follow their normal course—this wouldn't differ much from canon. I don't even think the original suit design would be different, because someone under those circumstances just isn't going to take time to beat out articulated boobs on a chest plate. Just make sure they're not going to be squashed flat and you're good to go. The second armor, I think, wouldn't be much different either. I don't picture Toni as a girl with the most common superpower, so she doesn't need that much room for her breasts. At this point, things aren't about asserting herself, it's about making up for a lifetime of profiting from other people's misery. You can probably see where this is going. Iron Woman is mistaken for Iron Man.
And she would like it.
Well, initially she'd be outraged about the mistake. But people talk about Iron Man differently than she's used to. They respect Iron Man for what "he" has done, without adjusting that opinion for the sake of gender. And of all people, Toni knows that Iron Woman would have a much harder time getting off the ground, so to speak. So she works with it, telling herself it's "just for now" and confirms nothing—never referring to "Iron Man" or the gender of the suit/its wearer. Build up the reputation, then give a big reveal. Flashy idea, yet very functional. In other words, Stark All Over.
And then comes the Avengers. This isn't just respect from the media. People treat Iron Man differently too. That would be an even stronger drug than alcohol. The Wasp would throw a spanner in things—I've no idea how that angle of the story went canonically, but Toni would pay attention to how the Wasp is treated because of her status as Token Chick. She'd pay even more attention when she doesn't get treated how she'd expect. After that, there'd be some long, quiet wrangling about holding up herself as a woman and the acceptance. Should she throw in with Wasp and show female solidarity? Historically, that's what she would have done, but hearing "you did a good job" without having "for a girl" tacked on would be a mighty strong incentive. She'd completely believe that they'd toss her out of the Avengers if she revealed her gender. It's unrealistic, because by the time you get up to being a superhero, little things like gender don't seem to matter as much, but her fears haven't always been very realistic. At least the Wasp has powers, right? Toni's just a chick in a nice suit.
After the Avengers comes... Captain America. And hate at first sight. Remember what I said about Toni getting annoyed by the whole chivalry thing? That's Cap's shtick. He's the perfect soldier, which means chivalry all over. Of course, he also has the disadvantage of being the peak of human perfection—and male by default, because gods help us if a woman happens to be the strongest/fastest/greatest/etc. I imagine she did a lot of liver-gnawing over that when learning about him in school. This is decidedly not Cap's #1 fan. Fortunately, hating Cap is like hating puppies and rainbows and puppy-shaped rainbows all at once, so I don't think it would stick.
After that, my headcanon runs out, because my canon runs out lol. I've really no idea how Toni would handle all the crap Tony went through and continues to go through.
WHEW. Now that that's out of my system, I can feel safe never ever writing it. I have too many fics as it is, lol. (zomg 2,400 words of rambling, wtf?)
no subject
Date: 2009-08-29 07:53 pm (UTC)joinsubscribe to yourcultnewsletter.no subject
Date: 2009-08-30 12:53 am (UTC)The
cultnewsletter subscription fee is 100 souls. Or, you know, dropping me a line. HI PERSON. :Dno subject
Date: 2009-08-30 02:49 am (UTC)Relatedly, have you seen this thread (http://community.livejournal.com/marvel_kink/567.html?thread=21559#t21559) over on the kink meme? Or this one (http://community.livejournal.com/marvel_kink/567.html?thread=216119#t216119)? I love that girl!Tony is canon in more than one way...
no subject
Date: 2009-08-30 03:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-16 02:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-16 02:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-06 01:54 pm (UTC)i just found this while doing a lj search (yes i am trolling for Female!Tony) and i must say i adore your viewpoint i really whish you had written this (could you? i offer ny undying devotion in return).
Especially the part about all of the problems that men just don't think about women having to deal with, i remember once talking to one af my male friends about being annoyed over the longer road i had to take when i walk home at night because my usual rute hits a stretch of road that i do not want to be walking alone at night, and he looked at me like i was crazy and asked why i didn't just take the usual way and that it was just an unlit stretch of road (it's a little more creepy than that by the way :P)
and i realised why we weren't on the same wavelength he was never taught to consider himself a victim the idea of "the bogeyman" hiding in one af those alleys didn't even occur to him, that always shocks me about in men.
and i rambled a bit there sorry hot spot topic for me any way great meta again
-Kat
no subject
Date: 2010-05-06 04:09 pm (UTC)Yeah. When I wrote this, I hadn't come across the concept of Male Privilege yet, but that's pretty much the concept that I tackled. Guys really have no clue sometimes. :\ True, statistically you're more likely to be attacked by someone you know, but knowing that doesn't help when "victim victim VICTIM" has been pounded into your head.
♥ Thank you for commenting! :D
no subject
Date: 2010-05-10 12:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-10 02:17 pm (UTC)